It's a little saddening, depressing in fact, how quiet so many teachers and long term Ashtanga practitioners are being with regard to the latest revelations regarding Pattabhi Jois and his 'inappropriate adjustments' (abuse). Pictures and videos have been floating around for several years that may or may not have been photoshopped to some degree or at least taken out of context but Mary Taylor's article indicates that this was recurring, addictive, behaviour that Pattabhi Jois was aware he was committing and that he as well as his family tried but failed to stop on several occasions.
Pattabhi Jois it appears had a compulsion to touch students inappropriately, to sexually assault his students in the shala and practice spaces, and that this was something he or his family were unable to control.
I do call upon the Jois family to apologies publicly, unreservedly and without making excuses for his behaviour, Pattabhi Jois' actions were just plain wrong.
I would hope more teachers and practitioners would come out and say the same, the Authorised teachers list is back on the KPJAYI website, students can of course discuss this with their teachers and ask them to explain their position however uncomfortable. Because however awkward they may find this, given perhaps their personal affection for Pattabhi Jois, their relationship with the family and the practice, it is I suspect nowhere near as uncomfortable as that felt by those who were abused by Pattabhi Jois (whose photo is no doubt in a place of honour in their shala).
Extended quotes below from
Panic and Emptiness
http://www.ashtangayoganorthampton.com/blog/panic-and-emptiness
Background
Can Difficulties Give Us Insight?
http://www.richardfreemanyoga.com/…/imsgnih1igya0m8ajzmx4n6…
Response from Karen Rain (Nee Haberman)
http://www.decolonizingyoga.com/karen-rain-responds-mary-t…/
This post from Mary Taylor and Richard Freemen, while timely, feels long overdue. I was always hoping that somebody who was actually there would write about this, one reason I've held off on it for so long. After two thousand blog posts on Ashtanga I don't see how I can justify not sharing these articles.
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I hesitate to quote from this excellent article on the issue, context is everything, the quote/section below comes from around two thirds of the way in.
from Panic and Emptiness
"Should we shun the art because of the sometimes deeply flawed humans who create it?
I still don’t know the answer yet. It begs the question: How do we separate the man/monster from the art, or things of beauty, grace or meaning which extremely flawed men may have created or helped produce or share with the world? Can we even do that? And what if these flawed men are people that we love and revere, who have blessed us with learning, beauty and grace by their very presence in our lives? Is that possible to hold both feelings simultaneously - love tempered with deep anger and disappointment - and still help survivors find healing? A white haired old man now, and a grandfather, I am certain my abuser’s family and their community loves, respects and reveres him, and doesn’t suspect about his toxicity. If they do, I’m sure they don’t know how to handle their ambivalence about him, either. I hope he seeks their forgiveness.
I am really wrestling with this question right now, especially as an old, well-discussed story about the many transgressions of the Indian progenitor of the yoga that has been my life’s practice, Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, has resurfaced these past few weeks. Jois died in 2009, but the story and the images arise on social media again every year or so. Recently, it’s been further whipped to a frenzy with some purposefully orchestrated Facebook “justice” - a mob mentality fomented by agenda-driven folks aligned with the American-based bureaucracy, the Yoga Alliance, who desire to destroy the Indian-based Ashtanga Yoga lineage, out of commodification, spite and most likely for self-aggrandizement and accolades. I suspect there is a hope that they can step into a power vacuum that might be created from its destruction or humiliation - and hence, loss of status, and money-paying yoga students. Always follow the money.
These folks are so hypocritical and manipulative, they sneeringly hurl the epithet of “cult” to incite anger and confusion amongst a community I've known for over two decades, that has sometimes felt a little dogmatic at times, but never has felt like a cult. (I stopped practicing Ashtanga for almost two years when I was injured by an IUD, and no one cared or came looking for me to "return.") What’s worse, they are actually using the stories of survivors, ostensibly to help their healing, but also to quietly further their own ends (see above) - a fact which disgusts me. More violence against women. Without belaboring the story, I’ve included a link, here in the words of one of his victims, that help explain how Pattabhi Jois behaved, and the attempts by his students and family at ending his behavior as well as the enabling that surrounded his behavior here.
Yes, it’s true, he touched people, men and women, on their genitals sometimes while adjusting them in asana. Some students were traumatized by this, some were not. Few who experienced it or saw it and knew it was wrong challenged him on it. Many enabled. This fact is deeply disappointing, but not criminal. Because, news flash, unless you’ve been living under a rock for the last few months (or maybe if you’re a man, sorrynotsorry) we all now know that we live in a culture where pretty much everyone - every institution, workplace, family, and community - enables. To publicly humiliate enablers does nothing to help heal survivors. It’s just more abuse, albeit coming from a place that seems justified. It’s not.
I have seen nor heard of ANY evidence of actual collusion or aiding and abetting of the behavior - that is, “honeypotting” - in any of his family or students, and that’s encouraging. There is no excuse, however, in modern society to do the things he did. So, I am not excusing him. These grievous instances of a beloved, brilliant man’s deep flaws - of his own “panic and emptiness” and his refusal to change his behavior, his "relapses" - sadden, anger and upset me to this day. For this reason, I’ve chosen to remove his photo from Ashtanga Yoga Northampton, at least for now. It’s not respectful to his victims, nor is it healing having it up there, not only for myself, but for anyone of the students that practices with us who may also be sexual assault survivors, to see it every day.
Nevertheless, I believe in the inherent goodness of people, that they can rise above their flaws, rise above the panic and emptiness that haunts them to reveal the loving light of their true and essentially noblest being. Few things have convinced me more of this truth than Ashtanga Yoga. I love my Ashtanga sadhana; it has literally saved my life. I am dedicated to and believe wholly in the Ashtanga practice and what it has to offer the world - this beautiful eight-limbed practice to knowing who we are that Sri K. Pattabhi Jois shared lovingly - yes, lovingly and compassionately - with my teachers, and which they lovingly and compassionately shared with me. I practice it and teach it with reverence - not for the man who shared it with us, but for the students. It is a brilliant and wise system that has brought me great solace and beauty, and through it, I hope to continue to serve those who wish to find some solace and beauty in their lives to, too.
---
Finally, what can be done to help heal both the survivors and the shaken Ashtanga community".......see the article for more. http://www.ashtangayoganorthampton.com/blog/panic-and-emptiness
also....
On adjustments
Personally I don't feel the practice stands or falls with those who teach but rather with those who practice.
And yet this all brings the practice into question for me. Surely this practice should moderate our compulsions, our desires support us in our work on yama/niyama. If not, then what is the point. If merely for health and fitness, then there are surely other systems as, or more, effective. It's said Pattabhi Jois stopped practicing asana, clearly, Mary suggests above he allowed his yama/niyama to slip also. Rather than undermining the practice then, perhaps this should be taken as a reminder that this is supposed to be an integrated system. For Krishnamacharya, the Yama/Niyama, the Asana and Pranayama along with the Pratyahara are all intended to support each other, none can carry us alone, all require constant attention and work, Patanjali reminds us (as do the Stoics) that we will fall short again and again, it is a constant work in progress. It's not to Guru's, to Mysore that we should be looking but only as far as our understanding of ourselves and our own treatment of others in the hope that today we will do better.
***
Some responses from teachers are coming in, from certified teacher Hamish Hendry, the start of a work in progress we can hope, better from Greg Nardi. My own fb post this evening shocked me a little.
(Triggers warning). As with Mary, I see this (response) from Hamish as 'a start’ and I want to commend him for it but every time I read this I get stuck at “And certainly there was no "see me later" sort of thing going on....”, The man was placing his finger on a students vagina, their anus, while they were bound in the most vulnerable of positions and its being excused (it is an excuse whether intended or not) by basically ‘...well it’s not like he took them outside and raped them‘ and it makes me mad as hell. If this happened to a woman on a train, to a kid at swim class, to an eight year old kid being visited by their GP...., would we make the same excuse? And according to Mary it seems to have happened regularly and though senior teachers and family stopped it for a time it seems to have been recurring behaviour, clearly they didn’t know from one class to the next if this was the class he would do it again (and the shame, betrayal, hurt, confusion, anger, loss that would stem from it). It all gets brushed under the Mysore rugs, the giant photo still in pride of place, as it is in every Shala ( perhaps not all now), the words of reverence every guru day, year in year out and nothing is learned, the same power structures in place. I’m grateful to Pattabhi Jois for passing along his teachers teaching, grateful for this practice but I grow more disgusted daily. I too hope for ‘healing’ in the community but first you have to lance the boil, pus an all. Sorry. No I’m not sorry, we should be mad.
Pattabhi Jois it appears had a compulsion to touch students inappropriately, to sexually assault his students in the shala and practice spaces, and that this was something he or his family were unable to control.
I do call upon the Jois family to apologies publicly, unreservedly and without making excuses for his behaviour, Pattabhi Jois' actions were just plain wrong.
I would hope more teachers and practitioners would come out and say the same, the Authorised teachers list is back on the KPJAYI website, students can of course discuss this with their teachers and ask them to explain their position however uncomfortable. Because however awkward they may find this, given perhaps their personal affection for Pattabhi Jois, their relationship with the family and the practice, it is I suspect nowhere near as uncomfortable as that felt by those who were abused by Pattabhi Jois (whose photo is no doubt in a place of honour in their shala).
***
Extended quotes below from
Panic and Emptiness
http://www.ashtangayoganorthampton.com/blog/panic-and-emptiness
Background
Can Difficulties Give Us Insight?
http://www.richardfreemanyoga.com/…/imsgnih1igya0m8ajzmx4n6…
Response from Karen Rain (Nee Haberman)
http://www.decolonizingyoga.com/karen-rain-responds-mary-t…/
Why The Abused Don't Speak Up - Anneke Lucas
This post from Mary Taylor and Richard Freemen, while timely, feels long overdue. I was always hoping that somebody who was actually there would write about this, one reason I've held off on it for so long. After two thousand blog posts on Ashtanga I don't see how I can justify not sharing these articles.
Apologies for the long quotes but I think we need as much of the context as possible here. I recommend if anyone feels like commenting they do so on the actual articles linked to below, after reading them carefully, rather than on an fb feed.
"In fact, it is well documented that my own teacher, Sri. K. Pattabhi Jois, (whom I love dearly) had certain “adjustments” that he gave to female students that were sexually invasive and inappropriate. One in particular that some have dismissed as an attempt to teach mula bandha was especially bad. I can say unequivocally that he never gave me that adjustment, but that I know he did give it to other women. I will also say that he did adjust me (and other students, both male and female) in Ubhaya Padangusthasana, elevating the student’s chest in such a way that with female students he had hands on their breasts.
These adjustments were sexually inappropriate and I wish he had never done them. On some level, I wish also that I had spoken publicly about them before now, but they were confusing and so much not in alignment with all of the other aspects of Pattabhi Jois that I knew, that I didn’t really know how to talk about them without disparaging the entire system. I can say that my experience was that he began doing these adjustments after foreign female students came to practice with him wearing very revealing Western-style clothing. To a provincial, orthodox Brahmin from a tiny village, who knows what these women looked like? Certainly they probably didn’t appear to be chaste or well bred. Around the same time, Western students stopped bowing to his feet in appreciation for class and instead began hugging and kissing him as a demonstration of gratitude. I am certain both of these things were mixed messages to him culturally.
Not to say that the scantily clad or overly effusive women were at fault for the sexually inappropriate adjustments. He was the teacher; even if he did misconstrue their message due to cultural differences, he should have seen through his own mind and through them. His behavior was wrong and it caused damage to many women, for which I, as one of his students, feel deep regret (as does Richard)."
***
But see too this Response from Karen Rain (Nee Haberman), one of the six in the famous Pattabhi jois Led Primary, who picks on something then made me too wince in Mary's article.
"Kudos to Mary Taylor for publicly acknowledging the corrupt adjustments of Pattabhi Jois and thus validating my claims and the claims of other women. It takes bravery, I’m sure.
However, if she truly doesn’t want to blame ‘scantily clad or overly effusive women,’ for his behavior, she really shouldn’t mention them in an apology. By doing so, it says that either on some level she accepts it as an excuse and does blame the women or is hoping that other people will accept it as excuse. After all it is a classic, easy to use excuse. It’s the one that the most people buy into. Plus, it takes the focus off of the behavior of the perpetrator, which is a relief when you don’t want to talk or think about it.
However, if she truly doesn’t want to blame ‘scantily clad or overly effusive women,’ for his behavior, she really shouldn’t mention them in an apology. By doing so, it says that either on some level she accepts it as an excuse and does blame the women or is hoping that other people will accept it as excuse. After all it is a classic, easy to use excuse. It’s the one that the most people buy into. Plus, it takes the focus off of the behavior of the perpetrator, which is a relief when you don’t want to talk or think about it.
Taylor describes Jois’ behaviour as a “flaw”. Committing sexual assault is not a “flaw.” It is a heinous crime.
Often when people find out about someone committing sexual abuse/assault, they have trouble reconciling that with other experiences they have of the person. This is not unique to Pattabhi Jois at all. However, he was supposedly a Yoga master. He abused his power. His adjustments were egotistical and cruel. Sexual abuse and assault are cruel!
The master of ‘Ashtanga Yoga’ did not cultivate the yamas. His behaviour, and the negligence of any of his students who minimized, rationalized or justified it in the past (myself included) or continues to do so now, demonstrates significant flaws in Jois’ system, as well as the deep hypocrisy that the yoga world can harbour."
Karen's original post.....
#MeToo.
After reading other women's posts, I am inspired by the importance of sharing experiences and naming names. Pattabhi Jois sexually assaulted me regularly in his yoga asana adjustments. I also witnessed him sexually assault other women regularly in a similar manner. His actions were protected by a culture of denial and cryptic justifications.
-Karen Haberman
I studied Ashtanga Yoga in Mysore for a total of 2 years between 1994 and 1998.
from Panic and Emptiness
"Should we shun the art because of the sometimes deeply flawed humans who create it?
I still don’t know the answer yet. It begs the question: How do we separate the man/monster from the art, or things of beauty, grace or meaning which extremely flawed men may have created or helped produce or share with the world? Can we even do that? And what if these flawed men are people that we love and revere, who have blessed us with learning, beauty and grace by their very presence in our lives? Is that possible to hold both feelings simultaneously - love tempered with deep anger and disappointment - and still help survivors find healing? A white haired old man now, and a grandfather, I am certain my abuser’s family and their community loves, respects and reveres him, and doesn’t suspect about his toxicity. If they do, I’m sure they don’t know how to handle their ambivalence about him, either. I hope he seeks their forgiveness.
I am really wrestling with this question right now, especially as an old, well-discussed story about the many transgressions of the Indian progenitor of the yoga that has been my life’s practice, Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, has resurfaced these past few weeks. Jois died in 2009, but the story and the images arise on social media again every year or so. Recently, it’s been further whipped to a frenzy with some purposefully orchestrated Facebook “justice” - a mob mentality fomented by agenda-driven folks aligned with the American-based bureaucracy, the Yoga Alliance, who desire to destroy the Indian-based Ashtanga Yoga lineage, out of commodification, spite and most likely for self-aggrandizement and accolades. I suspect there is a hope that they can step into a power vacuum that might be created from its destruction or humiliation - and hence, loss of status, and money-paying yoga students. Always follow the money.
These folks are so hypocritical and manipulative, they sneeringly hurl the epithet of “cult” to incite anger and confusion amongst a community I've known for over two decades, that has sometimes felt a little dogmatic at times, but never has felt like a cult. (I stopped practicing Ashtanga for almost two years when I was injured by an IUD, and no one cared or came looking for me to "return.") What’s worse, they are actually using the stories of survivors, ostensibly to help their healing, but also to quietly further their own ends (see above) - a fact which disgusts me. More violence against women. Without belaboring the story, I’ve included a link, here in the words of one of his victims, that help explain how Pattabhi Jois behaved, and the attempts by his students and family at ending his behavior as well as the enabling that surrounded his behavior here.
Yes, it’s true, he touched people, men and women, on their genitals sometimes while adjusting them in asana. Some students were traumatized by this, some were not. Few who experienced it or saw it and knew it was wrong challenged him on it. Many enabled. This fact is deeply disappointing, but not criminal. Because, news flash, unless you’ve been living under a rock for the last few months (or maybe if you’re a man, sorrynotsorry) we all now know that we live in a culture where pretty much everyone - every institution, workplace, family, and community - enables. To publicly humiliate enablers does nothing to help heal survivors. It’s just more abuse, albeit coming from a place that seems justified. It’s not.
I have seen nor heard of ANY evidence of actual collusion or aiding and abetting of the behavior - that is, “honeypotting” - in any of his family or students, and that’s encouraging. There is no excuse, however, in modern society to do the things he did. So, I am not excusing him. These grievous instances of a beloved, brilliant man’s deep flaws - of his own “panic and emptiness” and his refusal to change his behavior, his "relapses" - sadden, anger and upset me to this day. For this reason, I’ve chosen to remove his photo from Ashtanga Yoga Northampton, at least for now. It’s not respectful to his victims, nor is it healing having it up there, not only for myself, but for anyone of the students that practices with us who may also be sexual assault survivors, to see it every day.
Nevertheless, I believe in the inherent goodness of people, that they can rise above their flaws, rise above the panic and emptiness that haunts them to reveal the loving light of their true and essentially noblest being. Few things have convinced me more of this truth than Ashtanga Yoga. I love my Ashtanga sadhana; it has literally saved my life. I am dedicated to and believe wholly in the Ashtanga practice and what it has to offer the world - this beautiful eight-limbed practice to knowing who we are that Sri K. Pattabhi Jois shared lovingly - yes, lovingly and compassionately - with my teachers, and which they lovingly and compassionately shared with me. I practice it and teach it with reverence - not for the man who shared it with us, but for the students. It is a brilliant and wise system that has brought me great solace and beauty, and through it, I hope to continue to serve those who wish to find some solace and beauty in their lives to, too.
---
Finally, what can be done to help heal both the survivors and the shaken Ashtanga community".......see the article for more. http://www.ashtangayoganorthampton.com/blog/panic-and-emptiness
***
Why The Abused Don't Speak Up - Anneke Lucas
"A few days into the Ashthanga workshop with Sri K. Pattabhi Jois in the Puck Building, with four hundred or so students curled up into halasana, I was suddenly groped by the guru.
In absolute shock, I rolled to sitting and found found myself staring across the room at Sharath, Jois’s grandson, who stared back looking just as horrified as I felt.
Pattabhi Jois remonstrated: “Bad lady!” and I heard the mild laughter of the crowd at the guru’s old joke. In disbelief, I crouched to find his eyes. He smiled as if he had no idea what had transpired, and said:
“You no come out of pose.”
I sensed that if I were to respond in public, he would have experienced the humiliation he'd just made me feel. He would be angry, send me off. I thought I might be banned from my community that had come to feel like home. I was confused, felt helpless, and held my tongue".
****
On adjustments
Personally, as a home Ashtangi I've never felt the need for any assistance or hands on adjustments. I can see the argument perhaps for minor support to stop somebody falling over, as Manju Jois teaches, or a wave of the hand, a tap at most to indicate, "lift here", "reach out there", these seem more than sufficient. Or a wall for dropping back and/or coming up, or, if not available, a towel around the back to assist is surely all that is required.
I hear Sharath's adjustments are minimal as are Manju's.
If we have to be forced deeper into a posture grunting and groaning then I would suggest we aren't quiet ready for the full expression of that asana and a variation leading towards it might be more appropriate. But then I am coming from the home practitioner perspective.
I hear Sharath's adjustments are minimal as are Manju's.
If we have to be forced deeper into a posture grunting and groaning then I would suggest we aren't quiet ready for the full expression of that asana and a variation leading towards it might be more appropriate. But then I am coming from the home practitioner perspective.
Note: Ramaswami mentioned that Krishnamacharya never assisted and rarely demonstrated but then of course there wasn't a language barrier.
I've added an update to include the above articles to my Pattabhi Jois resource page as I feel it is relevant to how the practice is taught and preserved. We should remember too that Pattabhi Jois didn't 'invent' the practice, Primary and Second series (along with the count for each asana) were already present in Krishnamacharya' table of asana in his second book, Yogasangalu (Mysore 1941), although presented as groups of asana rather than fixed sequences).
That said we wouldn't have the practice without Pattabhi Jois' systemising (supposedly for a four year curriculum) and teaching.
That said we wouldn't have the practice without Pattabhi Jois' systemising (supposedly for a four year curriculum) and teaching.
And yet this all brings the practice into question for me. Surely this practice should moderate our compulsions, our desires support us in our work on yama/niyama. If not, then what is the point. If merely for health and fitness, then there are surely other systems as, or more, effective. It's said Pattabhi Jois stopped practicing asana, clearly, Mary suggests above he allowed his yama/niyama to slip also. Rather than undermining the practice then, perhaps this should be taken as a reminder that this is supposed to be an integrated system. For Krishnamacharya, the Yama/Niyama, the Asana and Pranayama along with the Pratyahara are all intended to support each other, none can carry us alone, all require constant attention and work, Patanjali reminds us (as do the Stoics) that we will fall short again and again, it is a constant work in progress. It's not to Guru's, to Mysore that we should be looking but only as far as our understanding of ourselves and our own treatment of others in the hope that today we will do better.
***
Some responses from teachers are coming in, from certified teacher Hamish Hendry, the start of a work in progress we can hope, better from Greg Nardi. My own fb post this evening shocked me a little.
(Triggers warning). As with Mary, I see this (response) from Hamish as 'a start’ and I want to commend him for it but every time I read this I get stuck at “And certainly there was no "see me later" sort of thing going on....”, The man was placing his finger on a students vagina, their anus, while they were bound in the most vulnerable of positions and its being excused (it is an excuse whether intended or not) by basically ‘...well it’s not like he took them outside and raped them‘ and it makes me mad as hell. If this happened to a woman on a train, to a kid at swim class, to an eight year old kid being visited by their GP...., would we make the same excuse? And according to Mary it seems to have happened regularly and though senior teachers and family stopped it for a time it seems to have been recurring behaviour, clearly they didn’t know from one class to the next if this was the class he would do it again (and the shame, betrayal, hurt, confusion, anger, loss that would stem from it). It all gets brushed under the Mysore rugs, the giant photo still in pride of place, as it is in every Shala ( perhaps not all now), the words of reverence every guru day, year in year out and nothing is learned, the same power structures in place. I’m grateful to Pattabhi Jois for passing along his teachers teaching, grateful for this practice but I grow more disgusted daily. I too hope for ‘healing’ in the community but first you have to lance the boil, pus an all. Sorry. No I’m not sorry, we should be mad.
*****
I'll give the last word to Ashtanga yoga Northampton....
"Finally, what can be done to help heal both the survivors and the shaken Ashtanga community?
First, we need to believe the survivors and support them as they process and heal. That means listening to their stories, acknowledging their truth without defending Jois, and seeking compassionately to find justice for them in the way they need, if that is possible at this stage, because, after all, he is dead.
(Which begs the question: Do we “visit the sins of the Father on the Son?” Do we malign or punish his family or his students? Maybe those that deny or refuse to believe the survivors should be taken to task - but those who freely admit error? Again, enabling is not criminal, it’s just deeply disappointing. I’ve observed a Facebook frenzy of self righteous anger against and shaming of those who have already bravely come forward to admit their enabling, and that’s wrong. Again, as a survivor, I don’t believe that’s the answer to finding personal healing surrounding sexual trauma means shaming enablers who show remorse, and shame on those who do.)
Second, the Ashtanga community and its senior teachers need to continue to be absolutely transparent, forthcoming and honest about what happened, what they observed, and the parts they played in what happened, too. Come clean, and share your stories, please. Truth and reconciliation needs to happen for the survivors, and for the entire community to move forward in a healthy and positive way.
Third, the KPJAYI must take active public steps immediately that ensure and safeguard the interests of victims before those of Ashtanga teachers, living or dead, no matter how “loved” or revered. If they do not already exist, clear and accessible protocols need to be developed and established to address any further allegations against transgressions by Ashtanga teachers. Obtaining the help of organizations that support survivors of sexual assault, both here and in Mysore, India, to help develop those protocols is key.
Fourth, more stringent vetting and regular peer review of those who wish to teach Ashtanga should seriously be considered by all Ashtanga senior teachers who offer any kind of teacher training or authorization. If I have to do a CORI check here in the States to volunteer to sell cookies at a Bake Sale at my kids’ grammar school, I think we in the Ashtanga world can come up with at standard means of determining whether or not the teachers we are authorizing to teach are at the very least, not sexual predators. And we don't need the Yoga Alliance to show us how to do that.
And, lastly, without question, there needs to be an established, International Ashtanga Code of Ethics, based on the tenets outlined in the first two limbs of Patanjali's Eight-Limbed path, Yama and Niyama - including compassion, nonstealing, nongreediness, austerity, self-inquiry, and wise use of our personal sexual lifeforce - for all who choose to teach this practice. "