UPDATE
Thank you to everyone who has commented thus far on this a 'spur of the moment' post that was just supposed to be somewhere to put a long comment that I'd had to split into three on the previous post. I thought I'd buried it away behind Ramaswami's newsletter that I posted right afterwards.
These are some of the most beautiful, honest comments on personal practice that I have read anywhere and do so much more than anything I could have written in the actual post to respond to Todd's original comment and questioning of the practice. Thank you again and if your reading this and tempted to comment yourself, please do.
Response to a comment ( a quick response to a comment, knocked off with little reflection. I might have put it somewhat differently if I took the time to think about my response more but sometimes these are a good snapshot of how I currently view the practice and my current relationship to it).
Todd 30 June 2013 23:03
As you get older your going to have to come to terms with Ashtanga yoga and that it will eventually destroy your body.. it was created for teenagers..Nobody, Including Jois or Krishanamcharya did this series all their life..The ego wants to continue but the body says no.. You are well trained, consider " Viniyoga" and be content with not always having to progress. Doing the same sequences over and over leads to imbalance. These "series" lead to wanting to push and pushing takes us from the now..You will achieve nothing spiritually from these practices only a swollen head and inflamed joints. I have only seen body obsessed narcissists arise from this practice. Look at these posts and see the asana possessed people, pushing , pulling and harming..It will be crushing the day you have to let go of your practice, might as well let go now and be done with it before your spine, hips etc let go for you... It seems this might be happening already and is a clear sign. .
Grimmly July 2013 07:31
Todd I have so many problems with what you're saying here, let me go through them one by one.
1. 'it ( I'm assuming you mean Ashtanga) was created for teenagers.
It's true that Krishnamacharya taught young boys but if you look at Yoga Makaranda or Yogasanagalu we don't find a fixed sequence, we do find long stays in certain postures recommended as well as breath retentions. It seems K would occasionally put the boys in a posture and have them chant mantras and slokas while in the asana. In Yogasanagalu we find the asana divided up into beginner, middle and advanced postures and K. was clearly interested in exploring a vast range of asana. We also know that in the same period he was practicing a lot of Yoga Therapy, Indra Devi the most famous perhaps. There is the starting and finishing of an asana from standing so that every movement is linked to an inhalation and exhalation but we find that in viniyoga and Vinyasa Krama also although we might start and finish a groups of postures that way rather than every single asana.
So, the fixed Ashtanga sequences you're referring too, as we know them now, don't seem to be exactly what Krishnamacharya was teaching to the young boys at the Mysore palace. Pattabhi Jois seems to have taught something similar but perhaps a little more fixed and included the suryanamascaras when he began teaching at the sanskrit college. There were not young boys but young men. We also know he was teaching all ages and adapting the practice to the needs of his other students and patients.
I think the idea of Ashtanga we have now seems to have come with the encounter of the West, with Nancy Gilgoff and David Williams in the beginning and the approach to the Syllabus Jois gave them when they brought it back to the US. Young people seems to have become drawn to it and the more athletic aspect perhaps become focused upon, at least in the beginning.
I think it's true that people of all ages, drawn to the practice as it's grown in popularity have, in the past, tried to approach Ashtanga in the same way as those in their twenties but I think that's changing somewhat now. Perhaps we're coming full circle and the practice itself is opening up a little more and there's a recognition of it's adaptability.
2. Doing the same sequences over and over leads to imbalance
If you look again at Primary series you see a collection of subroutines that include a wide range and variety of movements. I've found it, taken slowly, to be an excellent Vinyasa Krama practice. I might add an extra posture here or there or just focus my attention more on a particular posture or group of postures if I feel it's what my body requires that day. Each asana is followed by a kriya in the transition out of the posture and into the next. Annoys me when people say there are no backbends in Ashtanga, what else is the upward dog that we do what thirty, forty times....interestingly David Williams I believe stays in upward dog for five breaths. And of course Jois himself stresses in Yoga Mala that we (as householders) do what we can, we don't have to practice the full sequence, we can just practice the Sury's and padmasana (although many seem to have forgotten that).
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3.These "series" lead to wanting to push and pushing takes us from the now.
That's not exactly true is it, it's not the series themselves but how they are taught and I think there may have been a focus for a long time on progressing through the series, that says more perhaps about our mentality in the West. I think it's beginning to change, a shift in focus and I know several Ashtangi's who are quite content to work at where they are rather than grasp at new postures. I'm happy to do a Vinyasa Krama modified Primary and 2nd series these days although I will occasionally add an extra posture or two from third as an extension of an asana group just as I did in Vinyasa Krama.
There are some drawbacks to a fixed sequence but great benefits too. I've come around to thinking that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks and so have gone back to a mostly fixed sequence while seeking to balance any drawbacks with a more flexible approach.
4. You will achieve nothing spiritually from these practices only a swollen head and inflamed joints.
Again , this depends on how you approach the practice rather than the practice itself. You can be very full of yourself practicing other styles and get swollen joints there too. One of the benefits of a fixed system is an excellent awareness of the body in relation to those asana you practice everyday. So many if not most of the Ashtangi's I know of who practice everyday end up building their lives around their practice, that ninety minutes of concentration and attention that seems to seep into the rest of their day. We practice six days a week, go to bed early, take more care in our eating, drink less, eat less. Finding such value in nothing more than jumping about on a mat puts other aspects of our lives into perspectives. When something so simple and with so few requirements gives us such rewards other desires seem less attractive. It's an excellent beginning along any spiritual path I would argue. Ashtangi's read some spiritual texts and often begin to explore others, that too is becoming more encouraged as is chanting ( a requirement in Mysore now) and pranayama is becoming more widely considered in Ashtanga again. So many Ashtangi's I know of also explore or at least have some curiosity for some form of meditation practice.
5. I have only seen body obsessed narcissists arise from this practice.
There are those of course but I see something very different and perhaps your obsessed narcissists will turn into something other even if a little later than sooner.
6. It will be crushing the day you have to let go of your practice, might as well let go now and be done with it before your spine, hips etc let go for you... It seems this might be happening already and is a clear sign.
I did let go of the practice and was happily practicing Vinyasa Krama, I came back to Ashtanga (via Yoga Makaranda) because I began to see that it wasn't the practice itself that was a problem but rather how I was approaching the practice. Now I take more of a VInyasa krama approach to my Ashtanga and there seem to be a better balance while regaining some of the strengths and uniqueness of Ashtanga.
I think it's a practice in transition, still in growth and development as are we.
I've been quite the critic of the practice or of aspects of it at least in the past. It's easy to focus on the more obvious temptations of the practice and be critical and miss much else of what else is going on. I still believe that Krishnamacharya's teaching was consistent throughout his life and that it's still possible to focus on what is essential in his teaching in whichever style we practice. I'm sure Viniyoga, Iyengar and even Vinyasa krama practitioners get wrapped up in their idea of their style and can get just as blinkered as any Ashtangi.
One more thing I want to add here.
For some, many perhaps, Ashtanga may always be a mostly physical activity, something they can fit into their day with nothing more than a mat in a corner and that will improve their, health fitness and flexibility. They may have no interest in other aspects of Yoga, just happy to focus on the shapes and the breath.
I still think that's something rather wonderful right there.
Thank you to everyone who has commented thus far on this a 'spur of the moment' post that was just supposed to be somewhere to put a long comment that I'd had to split into three on the previous post. I thought I'd buried it away behind Ramaswami's newsletter that I posted right afterwards.
These are some of the most beautiful, honest comments on personal practice that I have read anywhere and do so much more than anything I could have written in the actual post to respond to Todd's original comment and questioning of the practice. Thank you again and if your reading this and tempted to comment yourself, please do.
-----------------
Todd 30 June 2013 23:03
As you get older your going to have to come to terms with Ashtanga yoga and that it will eventually destroy your body.. it was created for teenagers..Nobody, Including Jois or Krishanamcharya did this series all their life..The ego wants to continue but the body says no.. You are well trained, consider " Viniyoga" and be content with not always having to progress. Doing the same sequences over and over leads to imbalance. These "series" lead to wanting to push and pushing takes us from the now..You will achieve nothing spiritually from these practices only a swollen head and inflamed joints. I have only seen body obsessed narcissists arise from this practice. Look at these posts and see the asana possessed people, pushing , pulling and harming..It will be crushing the day you have to let go of your practice, might as well let go now and be done with it before your spine, hips etc let go for you... It seems this might be happening already and is a clear sign. .
-------------------
Turned this into a post Todd, hope you don't mind, I think your criticisms are fair enough from one perspective, I've had most of the same criticisms myself at different times but I think it's easy to see only those criticisms of the practice, the worst case examples. Ashtanga can be as you describe and that can be fine if your young and fit, treat it as an extreme sport, why not, but it doesn't have to be like that, not only like that ( if it ever really is) I believe it is a lot more besides.
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| Sharath in padmasana from Yoga Mala |
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| padmasana from Yoga Mala |
Grimmly July 2013 07:31
Todd I have so many problems with what you're saying here, let me go through them one by one.
1. 'it ( I'm assuming you mean Ashtanga) was created for teenagers.
It's true that Krishnamacharya taught young boys but if you look at Yoga Makaranda or Yogasanagalu we don't find a fixed sequence, we do find long stays in certain postures recommended as well as breath retentions. It seems K would occasionally put the boys in a posture and have them chant mantras and slokas while in the asana. In Yogasanagalu we find the asana divided up into beginner, middle and advanced postures and K. was clearly interested in exploring a vast range of asana. We also know that in the same period he was practicing a lot of Yoga Therapy, Indra Devi the most famous perhaps. There is the starting and finishing of an asana from standing so that every movement is linked to an inhalation and exhalation but we find that in viniyoga and Vinyasa Krama also although we might start and finish a groups of postures that way rather than every single asana.
So, the fixed Ashtanga sequences you're referring too, as we know them now, don't seem to be exactly what Krishnamacharya was teaching to the young boys at the Mysore palace. Pattabhi Jois seems to have taught something similar but perhaps a little more fixed and included the suryanamascaras when he began teaching at the sanskrit college. There were not young boys but young men. We also know he was teaching all ages and adapting the practice to the needs of his other students and patients.
I think the idea of Ashtanga we have now seems to have come with the encounter of the West, with Nancy Gilgoff and David Williams in the beginning and the approach to the Syllabus Jois gave them when they brought it back to the US. Young people seems to have become drawn to it and the more athletic aspect perhaps become focused upon, at least in the beginning.
I think it's true that people of all ages, drawn to the practice as it's grown in popularity have, in the past, tried to approach Ashtanga in the same way as those in their twenties but I think that's changing somewhat now. Perhaps we're coming full circle and the practice itself is opening up a little more and there's a recognition of it's adaptability.
2. Doing the same sequences over and over leads to imbalance
If you look again at Primary series you see a collection of subroutines that include a wide range and variety of movements. I've found it, taken slowly, to be an excellent Vinyasa Krama practice. I might add an extra posture here or there or just focus my attention more on a particular posture or group of postures if I feel it's what my body requires that day. Each asana is followed by a kriya in the transition out of the posture and into the next. Annoys me when people say there are no backbends in Ashtanga, what else is the upward dog that we do what thirty, forty times....interestingly David Williams I believe stays in upward dog for five breaths. And of course Jois himself stresses in Yoga Mala that we (as householders) do what we can, we don't have to practice the full sequence, we can just practice the Sury's and padmasana (although many seem to have forgotten that).
Ashtanga breakdown into Vinyasa Krama(ish) subroutines
3.These "series" lead to wanting to push and pushing takes us from the now.
That's not exactly true is it, it's not the series themselves but how they are taught and I think there may have been a focus for a long time on progressing through the series, that says more perhaps about our mentality in the West. I think it's beginning to change, a shift in focus and I know several Ashtangi's who are quite content to work at where they are rather than grasp at new postures. I'm happy to do a Vinyasa Krama modified Primary and 2nd series these days although I will occasionally add an extra posture or two from third as an extension of an asana group just as I did in Vinyasa Krama.
There are some drawbacks to a fixed sequence but great benefits too. I've come around to thinking that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks and so have gone back to a mostly fixed sequence while seeking to balance any drawbacks with a more flexible approach.
4. You will achieve nothing spiritually from these practices only a swollen head and inflamed joints.
Again , this depends on how you approach the practice rather than the practice itself. You can be very full of yourself practicing other styles and get swollen joints there too. One of the benefits of a fixed system is an excellent awareness of the body in relation to those asana you practice everyday. So many if not most of the Ashtangi's I know of who practice everyday end up building their lives around their practice, that ninety minutes of concentration and attention that seems to seep into the rest of their day. We practice six days a week, go to bed early, take more care in our eating, drink less, eat less. Finding such value in nothing more than jumping about on a mat puts other aspects of our lives into perspectives. When something so simple and with so few requirements gives us such rewards other desires seem less attractive. It's an excellent beginning along any spiritual path I would argue. Ashtangi's read some spiritual texts and often begin to explore others, that too is becoming more encouraged as is chanting ( a requirement in Mysore now) and pranayama is becoming more widely considered in Ashtanga again. So many Ashtangi's I know of also explore or at least have some curiosity for some form of meditation practice.
5. I have only seen body obsessed narcissists arise from this practice.
There are those of course but I see something very different and perhaps your obsessed narcissists will turn into something other even if a little later than sooner.
 |
| Guilty as charged? Or just excited by the practice? |
I did let go of the practice and was happily practicing Vinyasa Krama, I came back to Ashtanga (via Yoga Makaranda) because I began to see that it wasn't the practice itself that was a problem but rather how I was approaching the practice. Now I take more of a VInyasa krama approach to my Ashtanga and there seem to be a better balance while regaining some of the strengths and uniqueness of Ashtanga.
I think it's a practice in transition, still in growth and development as are we.
I've been quite the critic of the practice or of aspects of it at least in the past. It's easy to focus on the more obvious temptations of the practice and be critical and miss much else of what else is going on. I still believe that Krishnamacharya's teaching was consistent throughout his life and that it's still possible to focus on what is essential in his teaching in whichever style we practice. I'm sure Viniyoga, Iyengar and even Vinyasa krama practitioners get wrapped up in their idea of their style and can get just as blinkered as any Ashtangi.
One more thing I want to add here.
For some, many perhaps, Ashtanga may always be a mostly physical activity, something they can fit into their day with nothing more than a mat in a corner and that will improve their, health fitness and flexibility. They may have no interest in other aspects of Yoga, just happy to focus on the shapes and the breath.
I still think that's something rather wonderful right there.